Paula Vennells claimed Horizon wasn’t discussed on WhatsApp, Post Office inquiry hears

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Paula Vennells and fellow Post Office executives did not provide WhatsApps to the public inquiry into the Horizon scandal after telling lawyers the faulty software was not discussed, it has emerged.
Chris Jackson, a legal representative for the Post Office, said Post Office bosses were questioned about their use of WhatsApp but said it was only used for “administrative” purposes.
When questioned by Jason Beer KC if Ms Vennells and other executives were told to provide messages on their mobile phones, Mr Jackson said he understood they did not contain “substantive discussions of the kind that are being canvassed at other inquiries at the moment”.
Mr Beer asked: “So if Paula Vennells was intending to attend a meeting and was going to discuss with Angela van den Bogard beforehand what to say and what not to say, she wouldn’t have used, on your understanding, WhatsApps to do so?”
“Based on the information we have, no she wouldn’t,” Mr Jackson replied.
However, Ms Vennells could still be asked to hand over the WhatsApps in the future, as Mr Jackson said the situation was being kept under review.
Mr Jackson admitted the Post Office’s disclosure of documents to the public inquiry has been “suboptimal”.
It comes after the inquiry was told on Dec 19 that the Post Office’s disclosure of documents in relation to investigator Stephen Bradshaw’s evidence was complete, before about-turning last Friday and saying 924 further documents would be disclosed.
Jason Beer KC, inquiry counsel, said it “doesn’t make for happy reading” that hundreds of new documents were released at the last minute, and asked Christopher Jackson if he agreed that the run of correspondence was “rather chaotic”.
Mr Jackson said: “You used the phrase before the lunch break sub-optimal, it is clearly that. It must be frustrating, particularly for the inquiry, and for witnesses and I suspect for those at the other end trying to get it right.”
The delays prompted concerns that further disclosure delays may impact phases 5 and 6 of the inquiry.
The Post Office apologised for the disclosure delays which resulted in the postponement of hearings in the public inquiry into the Horizon scandal.
It has previously been criticised for not disclosing certain documents in legal proceedings against sub-postmasters and to the inquiry.
Thank you for following our live coverage of the Horizon IT Inquiry. 
Check The Telegraph website for the latest updates. 
 
Here are the main talking points from the Post Office inquiry following the appearance of Chris Jackson, a legal representative for the company, on Friday.
Paula Vennells and other Post Office executives didn’t provide their WhatsApps to the public inquiry into the Horizon scandal after telling lawyers the software was never discussed, it has emerged
Asked by Jason Beer KC if Post Office bosses were not asked by lawyers to provide their WhatsApp messages and if lawyers had not looked at their phones, Mr Jackson replied: “We have tested whether it would be needed to be done by asking them questions as to… do they use WhatsApp and what do they use it for. And the response is, as I understand it… that it’s administrative.”
He said he understood that bosses had not been using WhatsApp to have “substantive discussions of the kind that are being canvassed at other inquiries at the moment”.
Mr Jackson has admitted the Post Office’s disclosure of documents to the public inquiry has been “suboptimal”.
The inquiry was told on December 19 that the Post Office’s disclosure of documents in relation to investigator Stephen Bradshaw’s evidence was complete, before U-turning last Friday and saying 924 further documents would be disclosed.
Jason Beer KC, inquiry counsel, said it “doesn’t make for happy reading” that hundreds of new documents were released at the last minute, and asked Christopher Jackson if he agreed that the run of correspondence was “rather chaotic”.
Mr Jackson said: “You used the phrase before the lunch break sub-optimal, it is clearly that. It must be frustrating, particularly for the inquiry, and for witnesses and I suspect for those at the other end trying to get it right.”
Jason Beer KC has questioned Chris Jackson on a number of inaccuracies surrounding an electronic disclosure questionnaire, or EDQ, submitted to the High Court for a 2019 group action brought by Alan Bates and 555 sub-postmasters.
The inquiry was told the EDQ contained informaton that was either not accurate or oversimplified, a statement of truth was signed by Andrew Parsons, a partner at Womble Bond Dickinson.
Asked by Mr Beer if information provided to the High Court and the claimants was inaccurate, Mr Jackson replied: “With what is known now, yes”.
Some “significant volumes” of the same documents that were marked “new material” led to delays to hearings.
Stephen Bradshaw, the Post Office investigator who gave evidence to the inquiry on Thursday, was due to give evidence initially in November but his appearance was postponed, the inquiry counsel explained, “due to disclosure of what was said to be substantial new documents very shortly before he was due to give evidence”.
Jason Beer KC, counsel for the inquiry, told the inquiry that Post Office had produced up to 50 duplicated documents which had been marked as “new material”.
The Post Office has apologised over disclosure delays which has resulted in the postponement of hearings in the public inquiry into the Horizon scandal, Blathnaid Corless reports.
In his opening remarks to the inquiry, Chris Jackson, a partner at law firm Burges Salmon LLP, said it was a Post Office priority to improve the release of documents.
The Post Office has previously been criticised for not disclosing certain documents in legal proceedings against sub-postmasters and to the inquiry.
Chris Jackson has now finished giving evidence and the inquiry has ended for the day.
 
Paula Vennells and other Post Office executives didn’t provide their WhatsApps to the public inquiry into the Horizon scandal after telling lawyers the software was never discussed, it has emerged
Asked by Jason Beer KC if Post Office bosses were not asked by lawyers to provide their WhatsApp messages and if lawyers had not looked at their phones, Mr Jackson replied: “We have tested whether it would be needed to be done by asking them questions as to… do they use WhatsApp and what do they use it for. And the response is, as I understand it… that it’s administrative.”
He said he understood that bosses had not been using WhatsApp to have “substantive discussions of the kind that are being canvassed at other inquiries at the moment”.
Mr Beer then asked: “So if Paula Vennells was intending to attend a meeting and was going to discuss with Angela van den Bogard beforehand what to say and what not to say, she wouldn’t have used, on your understanding, WhatsApps to do so?”
“Based on the information we have, no she wouldn’t,” Mr Jackson replied.
However, Ms Vennells could still be asked to hand over the WhatsApps in the future, as Mr Jackson said the situation was being kept under review
Chris Jackson, a legal representative for the Post Office, has been asked whether he can give any assurances that the disclosure of documents will not hinder phases 5 and 6 of the inquiry
Mr Jackson said he could give some assurances that he his firm would use all “professional skill” to reduce disruption to a minimum and said it had explored ways of ensuring documents with minor differences are not sent as duplicates.
However, he noted that transferring information from email systems was “slow” and “clunky”, while adding it was “ferociously difficult” to prevent duplicates from being sent.
Mr Jackson has admitted the Post Office’s disclosure of documents to the public inquiry has been “suboptimal”.
The inquiry was told on December 19 that the Post Office’s disclosure of documents in relation to investigator Stephen Bradshaw’s evidence was complete, before U-turning last Friday and saying 924 further documents would be disclosed.
Jason Beer KC, inquiry counsel, said it “doesn’t make for happy reading” that hundreds of new documents were released at the last minute, and asked Christopher Jackson if he agreed that the run of correspondence was “rather chaotic”.
Mr Jackson said: “You used the phrase before the lunch break sub-optimal, it is clearly that. It must be frustrating, particularly for the inquiry, and for witnesses and I suspect for those at the other end trying to get it right.”
 
Jason Beer KC is continuing to question Chris Jackson over the volume of duplicate documents the Post Office has provided to the pubic inquiry.
The hearing has heard some 420 documents out of 942 handed over by the Post Office to the inquiry in relation to investigator Stephen Bradshaw’s evidence were found to be duplicates.
It was uncovered in analysis by KPMG, ordered by the Post Office as part of its efforts to “identify replicative material”.
The documents were handed over to the inquiry the day before Mr Bradshaw was due to give evidence, the inquiry was told.
The inquiry has now resumed after an hour-long break.
Before the inquiry resumes this afternoon, we have some news in Scotland.
Three Post Office sub-postmasters convicted in Scotland have been given a date to appeal their convictions.
Rab Thomson, Ravinder Naga and Aleid Kloosterhuis all launched bids to quash their convictions after being prosecuted for allegedly defrauding the Post Office.
Some of the allegations date back nearly 20 years. At the Appeal Court in Edinburgh on Friday, full appeal hearings were set for February 1 at the same court.
Two other subpostmasters, Colin Smith and Judith Smith, had their convictions “administratively” quashed on Monday.
Around 100 subpostmasters in Scotland were convicted after they were wrongly accused of embezzling money in the Horizon scandal, and the country’s First Minister Humza Yousaf has pledged to get “justice” for those involved.
The Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry has now broken for lunch. 
Chris Jackson, a legal representative for the Post Office, will resume his evidence at 2pm.
His testimony has largely concerned the release of documents by the Post Office to the inquiry amid concerns over its disclosure relating to the Horizon scandal.
Here’s what we have learned so far today:
In his opening remarks to the inquiry, Chris Jackson, a partner at law firm Burges Salmon LLP, said it was a Post Office priority to improve the release of documents.
The Post Office has previously been criticised for not disclosing certain documents in legal proceedings against sub-postmasters and to the inquiry.
Gareth Jenkins, the architect of the Horizon IT system, had been due to give evidence to the public inquiry twice. But in each occasion it was postponed including as recently as November 2023, when the Post Office disclosed 3,045 documents on the evening before he was due to give evidence.
Jason Beer KC has questioned Chris Jackson on a number of inaccuracies surrounding an electronic disclosure questionnaire, or EDQ, submitted to the High Court for a 2019 group action brought by Alan Bates and 555 sub-postmasters.
The inquiry was told the EDQ contained informaton that was either not accurate or oversimplified, a statement of truth was signed by Andrew Parsons, a partner at Womble Bond Dickinson.
Asked by Mr Beer if information provided to the High Court and the claimants was inaccurate, Mr Jackson replied: “With what is known now, yes”.
Some “significant volumes” of the same documents that were marked “new material” led to delays to hearings.
Stephen Bradshaw, the Post Office investigator who gave evidence to the inquiry on Thursday, was due to give evidence initially in November but his appearance was postponed, the inquiry counsel explained, “due to disclosure of what was said to be substantial new documents very shortly before he was due to give evidence”.
Jason Beer KC, counsel for the inquiry, told the inquiry that Post Office had produced up to 50 duplicated documents which had been marked as “new material”.
The Post Office sent “significant volumes” of the same documents that was marked “new material”, leading to delays to hearings, the inquiry has heard, Blathnaid Corless reports.
Stephen Bradshaw, the Post Office investigator who gave evidence to the inquiry on Thursday, was due to give evidence initially in November but his appearance was postponed, the inquiry counsel explained, “due to disclosure of what was said to be substantial new documents very shortly before he was due to give evidence”.
Jason Beer KC, counsel for the inquiry, told the inquiry that Post Office had produced up to 50 duplicated documents which had been marked as “new material”.
The Post Office provided “inaccurate” information to the High Court, one its lawyers has told the inquiry into the Horizon scandal.
Jason Beer KC has questioned Chris Jackson on a number of inaccuracies surrounding an electronic disclosure questionnaire, or EDQ, submitted to the High Court for a 2019 group action brought by Alan Bates and 555 sub-postmasters.
The inquiry was told the EDQ contained informaton that was either not accurate or oversimplified, a statement of truth was signed by Andrew Parsons, a partner at Womble Bond Dickinson
Asked by Mr Beer if information provided to the High Court and the claimants was inaccurate, Mr Jackson replied: “With what is known now, yes”
The exchange came as the inquiry learns about issues surrounding Post Office emails including what systems were used and when and the effect that had on trying to provide relevant information to the panel. 
As details about the Post Office scandal continue to emerge, it is worth noting some of the big names who are set to appear next week in front of the Commons business and trade committee, Blathnaid Corless reports.
Alan Bates, the former sub-postmaster who has led the campaign for justice against the Post Office, will give evidence to the select committee on Tuesday, along with former sub-postmistress Jo Hamilton.Both Mr Bates and Ms Hamilton’s stories were central to the recent ITV drama, Mr Bates vs the Post Office, which has shone a light on what is said to be the largest miscarriage of justice in British history.
While we continue to provide updates from the inquiry, Sir Keir Starmer has insisted only a “handful” of cases linked to the Horizon scandal may have been handled by the Crown Prosecution Service during his time in charge of the organisation.
The Labour leader, who led the CPS between 2008 and 2013, has said that he was not aware of Horizon cases brought against sub-postmasters by the agency.
The overwhelming majority of cases against victims of the scandal were brought by the Post Office using its own private prosecutions powers.
That has prompted calls for the Post Office to be stripped of those powers in the future, as the fall-out from the scandal continues.
Speaking to broadcasters during a visit to Bury, Greater Manchester, Sir Keir said: “I think it’s very important to be clear that these were, or the vast majority of these were, Post Office prosecutions brought by the Post Office in relation to their cases.
“A small number, at the moment it looks like there may have been three or so, a handful of cases, in the five years that I was director of public prosecutions that were handled by the Crown Prosecution Service.”
The inquiry into the Post Office Horizon IT scandal has featured technical discussions on Friday about how documents were disclosed.
Jason Beer KC even conceded during the hearing “I’m afraid this is super dry”.
We will continue to bring you any standout developments.
Post Office staff and advisers were not expected to work during evenings and at weekends despite “intense scrutiny” they faced with the public inquiry, it has emerged.
Staff including legal representatives were said to be striving to meet requests by the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry “within very short and demanding timeframes”.
“Although the professionals employed by POL and its external advisers are well used to working at pace and for prolonged periods of time, it is not realistic to expect that they will be able to maintain this pace and continue to work during the evenings and over weekends.”
Mr Beer has questioned Mr Jackson about a letter dated October 16 that signalled the Post Office would change its approach to how documents were disclosed.
It reveals that out of 402,000 documents that were collected in a remediation exercise just 2.8pc of 11,537 of them were considered relevant to the inquiry.
The letter reads: “The principle of reasonableness in relation to disclosure to the Inquiry – even if operating at the more stringent end of the spectrum – does not, and cannot, require POL to leave every stone unturned. Such a standard is impossible for POL to realistically comply with.
“There POL does not intend to adopt a similar approach to future requests having regards to the low rates of relevance.”
Mr Beer asked Mr Jackson whether this appeared to be a “flawed approach” but Mr Jackson denied it was.
The Post Office has apologised over disclosure delays which has resulted in the postponement of hearings in the public inquiry into the Horizon scandal, Blathnaid Corless reports.
In his opening remarks to the inquiry, Chris Jackson, a partner at law firm Burges Salmon LLP, said it was a Post Office priority to improve the release of documents.
The Post Office has previously been criticised for not disclosing certain documents in legal proceedings against sub-postmasters and to the inquiry.
Gareth Jenkins, the architect of the Horizon IT system, had been due to give evidence to the public inquiry twice. But in each occasion it was postponed including as recently as November 2023, when the Post Office disclosed 3,045 documents on the evening before he was due to give evidence.
In his witness statement, Mr Jackson said: “The Post Office has asked me to convey its apologies for the current situation and to assure the inquiry and other core participants that it is a post office priority to get to a position where hearings (and planning and preparation for hearings) can take place from a stable basis.”
Mr Beer has just gone through Chris Jackson’s legal background telling the inquiry he has worked as a solicitor since 1988 and joined the firm Burges Salmon in 1991.
He was made a partner in 1997.
In May 2023, his firm was appointed by the Post Office to advise the company on the public inquiry and Mr Jackson started work as the lead legal representative on September 1.
Jason Beer KC, counsel to the inquiry, has described the disclosure of documents as the “lifeblood” of the Post Office inquiry as he questions Mr Jackson.
He said it was necessary for documents to be received in a “fulsome and timely” manner, adding it may affect the timetabling for further phases of the inquiry.
The inquiry is currently in phase 4 with seven phases in total.
Mr Jackson, a lawyer representing the Post Office, has been sworn into the inquiry and is about to start giving evidence. 
He will be questioned by Jason Beer KC, counsel to the inquiry.
Sir Wyn Williams, the chair of the Inquiry, appears to be working remotely for this hearing. 
He is listening to Mr Jackson’s evidence via video link.
As we await for the inquiry to open, let’s recap the timeline of the Post Office scandal.
Our reporter Blathnaid Corless hears there may be a short delay to the start of the inquiry this morning because of technical issues. 
The hearing is being streamed on YouTube and will be available to watch on the Telegraph’s website.
Before we look ahead to the inquiry and the evidence of Chris Jackson, victims of the infected blood scandal have questioned why they are not getting the same coverage as the Post Office one.
Des Collins, senior partner of Collins Solicitors, which represents 1,500 victims and their families, said most of his clients would welcome a TV drama as it is a “situation you could relate to more readily than the 10 o’clock news”.
He said that since the ITV programme, Mr Bates Vs The Post Office, began to be aired the families have been calling him and asking why they are not getting the same coverage.
Mr Collins said: “They phone up and say ‘have you seen it, why aren’t we getting this coverage’ and they do feel marginalised but it is not a question of – we’re entitled to it, they’re not – it’s the question of everyone who is wronged in these circumstances as a result of whatever went wrong, whether it’s the Post Office scandal or the contaminated blood crisis, it requires the Government to react properly, objectively and fully.”
Commons Leader Penny Mordaunt has said it will not take an ITV drama for compensation to victims of the infected blood scandal to be resolved.
The Post Office is facing accusations it threatened and lied to the BBC before a Panorama programme with a Horizon whistleblower in 2015.
The BBC said experts who were interviewed for the programme were sent intimidating letters by Post Office lawyers who also sent letters to the broadcaster, threatening to sue Panorama.
According to the BBC, senior Post Office managers also told the broadcaster at the time that no staff or the company who developed Horizon, Fujitsu, could access subpostmasters accounts, despite being warned four years earlier this was possible.
The BBC says the claims did not stop the programme, titled Trouble at the Post Office, but it did delay the broadcast of the show.
The Post Office has been contacted for comment. It told the BBC it will not comment while the public inquiry continues.
The Telegraph published a number of developments in the Post Office scandal in today’s newspaper and online.
For more information click on the following links:
ITV drama is inaccurate, says one half of Post Office ‘Gruesome Twosome’
CPS involved in up to 99 Post Office convictions, leaked letter shows
Why Post Office rejected Horizon review five years before witch-hunt ended
Post Office investigators were accused of behaving like “Mafia gangsters” as their “bullying” tactics were laid bare at the public inquiry into the scandal on Thursday.
The inquiry into the Horizon scandal heard that Stephen Bradshaw, a security manager who helped prosecute nine sub-postmasters, forced one disabled postmistress to use a parcel lift and called another a “b—h”.
The “intimidating” tactics of Mr Bradshaw, who is still employed by the Post Office, were revealed as Downing Street said that the bill for compensating wronged sub-postmasters will top £1 billion.
Read more here: Post Office investigators ‘behaved like the Mafia’ and ‘bullied’ Horizon victims 
In November, testimonies from two people to the inquiry, Stephen Bradshaw and David Posnett, was postponed at the 11th hour after the Post Office admitted its auditors had discovered 363,000 emails on an old mailing system that had not been used since 2012.
Representatives for the Post Office said it “deeply regretted” the delay.
The Post Office has previously faced accusations of withholding thousands of documents from the inquiry
In October 2022, lawyers representing unfairly convicted operators accused the Post Office of deploying “malevolent” tactics to frustrate justice.
According to the Burges Salmon website, Mr Jackson is recognised as one of the country’s leading lawyers with a successful track record in “complex and business critical commercial disputes”.
He has previously worked in transport and is said to involved in reaching “legal solutions” for autonomous vehicles, including driverless cars).
Burges Salmon was appointed by the Post Office last year, replacing Herbert Smith Freehills, to advise the company in relation to the ongoing Horizon inquiry. 
The Telegraph will be providing live updates from the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry on Friday.
Chris Jackson, a partner at law firm Burgess Salmon LLP, will give evidence as a legal representative of the Post Office with questions expected over its disclosure to the inquiry.
Last month Sir Wyn Williams announced his intention to hold a hearing after evidence from previous representatives revealed process failings and potentially “deeper rooted problems” over the provision of documents.
We will hope to provide a live stream of the hearing from 10am.